Classic Mirror

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29 Oct 2006 21:50 #19493 by Trevor Lloyd
Classic Mirror was created by Trevor Lloyd
Just thought I'd start this thread to gauge the thoughts of the class members.

Now that the front end of the class is moving rapidly towards the one piece mast (long overdue and very welcome in my view) I have a feeling that the owners (racers?) of older gaff rigged boats may be feeling a bit put out.

Is it therefore possible that any clubs that are holding events from 2007 might like to consider awarding a prize to the first traditional gunter rigged boat. I know that 'grandfathered' boats are normally in the bronze fleet (at the nationals) but assigning classic status might encourage others to join in old and young alike.

I for one am very unlikley to sail a gunter rigged mirror again, even if it were a means to a piece of silverware. I do believe that there should be 'prize recognition' for the current existing 70,000+ mirrors that haven't modernised for what ever reason. A prize for the 1st Gunter Rigged Mirror, the first jeckels sailed mirror. The cost is little and just maybe will encourage a few more mirrors out to race.

Looking forward to the comments



N2O

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  • bobt
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30 Oct 2006 14:55 #13127 by bobt
Replied by bobt on topic Classic Mirror
Surly by what Simon Lovesey said on the one piece mast thread back in January, the one piece mast shows no advantage over the gaff rig in terms of boat speed, or was that not roses I could smell?

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30 Oct 2006 15:40 #13130 by Simon Lovesey
Replied by Simon Lovesey on topic Classic Mirror
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Surly by what Simon Lovesey said on the one piece mast thread back in January, the one piece mast shows no advantage over the gaff rig in terms of boat speed, or was that not roses I could smell?


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Gaff rigged boats are still winning class championships and individual races. As many of our top sailors have changed to the new rig it is not surprising that they are at the front of the fleet, these sailors would be winning regardless of what rig they were using. It is clear the new rig is faster in some conditions but slower in others, overall there appear to be minimal difference. Not all of the World's team have converted to the new rig as they believe they will be faster with the gaff.

There is far more of a performance differential between a top racing Mirror (gaff or alloy rig) and that of a typical Mirror with a floppy rig and soft bottom.

I agree with Trello that we need to find a way of acknowledging the older boats at our events with some sort of classic status. The challenge is to come up with a suitable form of classification, I believe it is not as simple as those with a gaff, as already seen these boats can out perform the new Bermudan rigged racers. It is also not age related, we often see ten year old + boats winning championships.

MCA Secretary

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30 Oct 2006 16:14 #13132 by Trevor Lloyd
Replied by Trevor Lloyd on topic Classic Mirror
The Gunter rigged mirrors enjoyed amazing development and moved them on to make them almost a different boat to that which I learnt in 34 years ago. Thwart sheeted so the boats point, not deck or gunwhale sheeted, wooden mast and sails that looked like an after thought....... That development will now slow down in all likelyhood if not stop. The top mirrors often had very special masts and Gaffs using specially selected materials and were and are expensive to produce, if you can get them.

The development of the sails to match the bermudan rig has only just begun, it may not prove to be any quicker overall, but does move away from the original ethos. We have only just started on the potentially expensive (for the front of the fleet) development in terms of sail and mast combinations to try and gain a speed advantage.

That change in ethos and the need to create something that suits the traditionalist is the reasoning. Put the two next to each other and they almost look like a different class of boat.

The danger is that people will rebuild old mirrors to the latest designs (that already happens)to win and we need to guard against that. Maybe we would have to exclude certain builders from the classic status or just include homebuild and Bell woodworking boats below 65,000?

So ANY thoughts as to what combination of factors would create a classic mirror is most welcome. Maybe we may have to go down the postal vote route?

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  • LevanteIRL67592
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31 Oct 2006 09:42 #13149 by LevanteIRL67592
Replied by LevanteIRL67592 on topic Classic Mirror
Bermudan rigged mirrors just got the top 5 places at the Coveney Cup for mirrors in Cork last weekend. I was the top gaff rig and in the F2-3 the Bermudan rig had far, far more power. The top section is much stiffer than the gaff.

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31 Oct 2006 10:38 #13152 by flyingpig
Replied by flyingpig on topic Classic Mirror
2 questions:
1) "Jeckels sailed boats" is that the vast majority of us club racers/potterers with the gunwhale or tank sheeted jibs rather than the (clearly faster) thwart sheeted jib? When we are assured that geriatric boast are still winnning big time all over the place, does anyone know what sort of jibs are they using
2)What is meant by a boat being "grandfathered"? My old tub could cetainly use a walking stick and a pair of slippers! (Just think... a jib stick/spinnaker untangler/depth sounder/implement for grappling onto passing speed merchants and two spare bailers or paddles <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>)
But seriously, I've often wondered...

pigs can....and do.....

Edited by - flyingpig on 31 October 2006 10:41:05

Edited by - flyingpig on 31 October 2006 10:45:24

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31 Oct 2006 12:00 #13156 by Trevor Lloyd
Replied by Trevor Lloyd on topic Classic Mirror
Flying Pig

To be honest I personally don't see that many Jeckels sailed boats these days, though we do see a few with deck sheeting and I can't remember seeing one with thwart sheeting for years. Personally and I stand to be corrected that a older boats that win are generally thwart sheeted. There are some very nice 'old' boats out there, but it's fair to say that the ones I have generally seen look to have been more or less rebuilt to 'new' spec. My thoughts around that are clearly there to be read in the 'building from plans' thread, so I shall say no more here.

Grandfathered - I believe this applies to boats without measurement certificates at the nationals, generally these are older boats. Possibly not even MCA members. I am sure that someone else can fill the gaps on this definition.

If we can stimulate the interest maybe we will see more of the older boats racing again. If people come out and play, stand a chance of winning something, maybe it will inspire them to buy a more up to date mirror. Clearly though we need to set the rules of engagement for classic status. Unfortunately, the people we need to engage are probably not even MCA members. Maybe we should arrange a poll at the dinghy show with a genuine classic mirror on show along side a modern one?

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31 Oct 2006 23:32 #13176 by flyingpig
Replied by flyingpig on topic Classic Mirror
"To be honest I personally don't see that many Jeckels sailed boats these days"

I think all 7 at our club are Jeckells sailed. Mine is probably the most up to date in that I moved the cleats from gunwhales to deck last winter. (wow!) In fact I am the only one who races regularly and the only one who seems interested in improving their boat. But I baulk at the cost of new sails. The other boats barely go out at all and certainly wouldn't go to traveller events. That's why you don't see them. I've only been to one and felt so inferior it was enough to put me off.

"I can't remember seeing one with thwart sheeting for years." Do you mean gunwhale/gunnel/gunhaul (now there's a thought.... boom, boom!)

Anybody who ventures into the competitive world with an "outdated" Mirror will be put off totally. If I could muster the price of an up to date Mirror I would spend my cash on a different class of boat altogether, having suffered such scorn and humiliation in mine. I don't think your plan will encourage people to buy modern Mirrors. We guys/gals on the fringes don't go to dinghy shows anyway because we know we haven't the cash. No, old Mirrors are just cheap starter boats for idiots who don't know any better. I'm only replacing mine (with an even older hull) because sailing it has given me so little confidence I don't believe I could sail any better boat.
Sorry - whinge whinge whinge! I have a love -hate relationship with my boat! <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

pigs might......

Edited by - flyingpig on 31 October 2006 23:35:24

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01 Nov 2006 18:03 #13187 by Trevor Lloyd
Replied by Trevor Lloyd on topic Classic Mirror
Flying Pig

You have highlighted the very reasin I started this thread. You may have been put off (Grimwith I believe?) because the others were flying around and your more elderly boat couldn't keep up. Your feelings are quite understandable, don't be put off we are a very friendly bunch.

It would be great to see more old boats turn out hence I believe in trophies for what would be a 'classic' mirror so that there was an encouragement to come out and play, not scorn and derision. I have seen in other classes very good old boats languish and die because they were not perceived as being competitive any more against modern designs, not always the case. Well done for spotting my 'gaff' about sheeting positions.

There will probably be a number of more modern gaff rigs and sails around for cheap upgrades of the older boats now that the 1 piece is gaining ground. I didn't enjoy learning in my then modern 72 vintage mirror and dreaded having to sail them. The 'modern' gaff rigged boats are a world apart, try one if you can and enjoy the ease and confidence they can give you.

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01 Nov 2006 19:54 #13188 by flyingpig
Replied by flyingpig on topic Classic Mirror
<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> So will the jibs be cut different yet again for the Bermuda rigged boats? ... or are the sail makers still working on that one? I didn't realise the actual gaff rig had ever changed apart from the all-the-way-down lacing being replaced by the luff slot in the gaff (when?) and the wooden lower masts being replaced by alloy (when?).


pigs might.....

P.S. <img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> Another question - what is the true difference between a "one design" class and a "development" class... and where does the Mirror really fit?
As a development class I believe the National 12 has different PYs according to vintage. I guess there isn't enough data for the same idea to be applied to Mirrors. I also assume that the basic PY of 1386 was calculated on the "classic" Mirror, so the newer ones should have a lower handicap. When we hear of all these jubilant kids <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> winning on handicap at their local clubs is it really because they are sailing a modern boat on a classic boat's handicap? Seems a bit unfair on the rest of the handicap fleet. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> My role in our club racing is to make sure struggling kids never have to come last (because they wouldn't be seen dead in a Mirror). I call it "supporting the fleet". <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>





Edited by - flyingpig on 01 November 2006 20:11:25

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01 Nov 2006 20:32 #13190 by toddy
Replied by toddy on topic Classic Mirror
Flyingpig, I will soon be able to pass judgement on new v's classic mirror. I have a new kit on its way from Duffin and have sailed 21863 "Hiccup Too" this year (wooden mast etc) I have no intention of getting rid of the classic. It will be interesting to see which I sail most and prefer.
Maybe rather than discriminating against age of boat we should have age related championships Up to 20, 20-40 , Over 40 ?

Trevor, what are your plans for your new boat. I am building mine purely as a single hander

Edited by - toddy on 01 November 2006 20:34:31

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01 Nov 2006 21:53 #13191 by Trevor Lloyd
Replied by Trevor Lloyd on topic Classic Mirror
Hi Toddy

New boat is for my son so will be fitted out with all the latest goodies and a few custom made ones just to be different. Not sure which mast yet but it will be one piece, the Selden is a bit stiff for the light weights.

I get to keep the old one (69583) though and that will go back to flyaway pole so that I can sail it single handed. That is now sporting the new rig and the old tuned gaff and mast is sitting in the garage awaiting.

Has the kit arrived yet?

Flying Pig

There was a lot of time and effort expended on getting the gaff rigs to perform, mainly attention to detail and the sails make a huge difference. The jibs seem to be just the same, it's the mains that are getting all the attention.
Our club tweeks handicaps anyway so we are used to not necessarily sailing off national PY's. Once sufficient data is collected it could be possible for the two to be rated slightly differently, but time will tell whether there really is a performance advantage. I will say though that the boat with one piece does seem to handle a bit more weight in the boat which is handy. The one big advantage in my mind of the single mast is ease of rigging, but there are all sorts of different views on that subject.

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02 Nov 2006 08:09 #13193 by toddy
Replied by toddy on topic Classic Mirror
Trevor, Alaister is awaiting a shipping box then it will be all systems go <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

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02 Nov 2006 17:45 #13197 by ecover
Replied by ecover on topic Classic Mirror
i thnk that the one peice mast should not happen and the mirror should say classic by keeping the gaff and normal mast..
ED

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02 Nov 2006 18:14 #13199 by James Lovesey
Replied by James Lovesey on topic Classic Mirror
Ed the one piece mast is optional, so if you want to keep your mirror classic you can still have a gaff on it.
I thought you didn't have a mirror.<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

James Lovesey<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

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