Classic Mirror

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02 Nov 2006 23:02 #13206 by Trevor Lloyd
Replied by Trevor Lloyd on topic Classic Mirror
Hi Ecover.

I see where you are coming from. The class has made the one piece optional as James rightly states. However, I recognise that there are a lot of people like you. It is to that group I want to support with the creation of a 'classic' mirror status for opens meetings, aside from the bronze fleet at the nationals.

The debate is therefore;

1/ Do people want it?

2/ What would you like to see as the criteria?

The debate, I am afraid, is no longer about whether we have the one piece mast or not. I for one have three, so wouldn't be too keen on reverting! So you see this is about recognising the traditionalist or those that either can't or don't want to go down the modern route. It is entirely about making them feel valued and part of the mirror racing community etc

It's up to those that do want to retain the traditional boat to help us by agreeing the criteria for it to happen. If not then the decision may be made for you or not happen at all, the latter I believe would be a tragedy .

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  • flyingpig
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02 Nov 2006 23:11 #13207 by flyingpig
Replied by flyingpig on topic Classic Mirror
So you want suggestions for criteria.
1) Obviously the old 2 piece mast, but what about alloy lower masts?
2) I would agree with your suggestion of gunnel or side tank sheeted jib i.e. what I presume to be Jeckels style sails.
3) Would you outlaw GRP boats from classic status? (As a matter of interest when did they start making them?)
4) Would you allow flyaway poles?
5) Would you allow extra battens to be fitted in older boats? (very topical for me!!)
6) Would you allow the enlarged transom drain holes?
.... and I sure we'll think up further issues..

pigs might.....

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  • toddy
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03 Nov 2006 07:57 #13211 by toddy
Replied by toddy on topic Classic Mirror
No spinnakers allowed.

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  • GarethT
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03 Nov 2006 09:55 #13212 by GarethT
Replied by GarethT on topic Classic Mirror
I don't think that having a strictly defined 'Classic' category would make me more likely to turn up with my knackered old boat and spritely young crew.

To come to an event I would want to know that there would be other knackered old boats being crewed by young children. I don't want to come and risk my 7 year old son feeling so demoralised by being thrashed by the serious racers, whilst having no other numpties at the back to sail against, that he won't want to come again.

For me, it's the type of sailor rather than the type of boat that would be the key factor in coming to an event.

Perhaps a couple of events in the calendar could be denoted as family/novice friendly, so all the less experienced sailors that would like to try an event, but lack the confidence, could all focus on the same one and enjoy some safety in numbers.

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  • Simon Lovesey
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03 Nov 2006 10:48 #13214 by Simon Lovesey
Replied by Simon Lovesey on topic Classic Mirror
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Perhaps a couple of events in the calendar could be denoted as family/novice friendly, so all the less experienced sailors that would like to try an event, but lack the confidence, could all focus on the same one and enjoy some safety in numbers.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

MCA runs a few coached opens each year, here the sailing instructions are changed to allow coaching during the actual racing.

The coach will go round the dinghy park talking to sailors, help with rigging etc

During the briefing the coach will give some tips

During the racing the coach will give advice to boats near the back, eg pull your sails in more

The coach will video the racing to be used for a post event debrief.

The challenge we have is to get the necommers to attend these events, the class is very welcoming and everyone thoughout the fleet helps

MCA Secretary

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  • toddy
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03 Nov 2006 18:42 #13219 by toddy
Replied by toddy on topic Classic Mirror
I think we should use this forum and arrange a meet up at an event for all of us who are at the moment floating on the fringes of attending.
What happens at these events ?
Do people stay ?
Is there a bar <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I think if a few of us arrange to meet, sail together and have a beer
and watch the flying machines from behind, stength in numbers sort of.

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  • GarethT
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03 Nov 2006 18:50 #13220 by GarethT
Replied by GarethT on topic Classic Mirror
Sounds like a great idea - a co-ordinated meet-up at a coached event.

I'm sure it just needs enough people to make that leap of faith together, and there'll be enough of us at the back to have a race.

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  • Simon Lovesey
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03 Nov 2006 19:30 #13221 by Simon Lovesey
Replied by Simon Lovesey on topic Classic Mirror
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
What happens at these events ?
Do people stay ?
Is there a bar <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I think if a few of us arrange to meet, sail together and have a beer
and watch the flying machines from behind, stength in numbers sort of.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

For the coached opens there is a post event debrief, this is usually in or near or the bar. This is a great chance to have a natter with the other Mirror sailors.

For our two day events we usually organise a supper on the Saturday, great opportunity to talk all things Mirror

MCA Secretary

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  • toddy
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03 Nov 2006 19:54 #13222 by toddy
Replied by toddy on topic Classic Mirror
Roll on next season then !

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  • flyingpig
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04 Nov 2006 09:18 #13226 by flyingpig
Replied by flyingpig on topic Classic Mirror
Last time I enquired about an event listed as a "coached open" ... or was it "open coaching".... I discovered it was actually just for potential national squad youngsters.

Instead of classifying the boats, let's classify the sailors (at GarethT suggests)- and decide what type of craft fits each category.

1) Keen youngsters sailing with their friends (- who may well go places with the aforementioned squad), encourged by keen parents who will treat them to all the latest gear and ferry them across continents. Future olympic sailors? (focus of most MCA activities)

2) Experienced adults, may have sailed Mirrors most of their lives, trained up the children who are now in class 1 and continue to sail probably single handed, maybe involved now with training other peoples children too. (Backbone of the MCA)

3) Parent child partnerships. Usually Dad (any Mums out there?) sailed as a youngster and wants to introduce the children to the things he enjoyed. Might send the kids on a holiday sailing course if they can afford to. If they get involved with racing it will be the children’s competitive instincts that drive them. Unless they are part of a lively Mirror fleet, the children will soon hanker after a faster boat.

4) Late starters who missed out on sailing as kids and take it up in middle age. Probably keen DIYers who buy an old boat and do it up lovingly before learning to sail it. Unlikely to have attended any formal training courses. First (only?) contact with other Mirrors likely to be through this forum. Might be lucky enough to have kids who will share the fun, for a while anyway, otherwise singlehanding. If they start racing it is probably as a social way to sail.

Anyone else out there?? Speak up!!

So what does the MCA offer to the last 2 categories?
Who is prepared to travel to events, whether racing or training?
Who sails the “classicâ€

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04 Nov 2006 09:48 #13227 by toddy
Replied by toddy on topic Classic Mirror
Flyingpig, I am definately a cat 4 sailor.
I have approached Angus regarding training for single handers which may be a better option for us older sailers

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  • Simon Lovesey
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04 Nov 2006 10:43 #13228 by Simon Lovesey
Replied by Simon Lovesey on topic Classic Mirror
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Last time I enquired about an event listed as a "coached open" ... or was it "open coaching".... I discovered it was actually just for potential national squad youngsters.

snip....
So what does the MCA offer to the last 2 categories?
Who is prepared to travel to events, whether racing or training?
Who sails the “classicâ€

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  • flyingpig
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04 Nov 2006 16:14 #13230 by flyingpig
Replied by flyingpig on topic Classic Mirror
So we need to know the timing and geography of these events which could accomodate the type 3 and 4 Mirror sailors. Then it's "I'll go if you'll go" ... sounds familiar from a previous discussion about uncompetitive boats at opens?
As a "Northern puddle sailor," events on the South coast are of no interest to me whatsoever.
If we did get together a group of type 3 or 4 sailors at an event, how many of us would there have to be in order for us to feel included, and how much notice would organisers need or our intention to descend on such an event in force?
To turn up and be told ... "but there's only 2 of you and we didn't know you were coming" is just the sort of discouragement we don't need.

I still haven't worked out the pros and cons of MCA membership, even though I eventually joined last year. If only I could persuade some of the other Mirror owners at our club to get their boats wet, I'd try to drag someone else along to an away event which might in turn encourage them to join the MCA. But if MCA membership were a prerequisite that might deter such casual sailors.

As regards the class being very welcoming, I have to say I've only ventured to one away event and I obviously chose the wrong one.

pigs might.....

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04 Nov 2006 16:43 #13231 by Simon Lovesey
Replied by Simon Lovesey on topic Classic Mirror
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

If we did get together a group of type 3 or 4 sailors at an event, how many of us would there have to be in order for us to feel included, and how much notice would organisers need or our intention to descend on such an event in force?
To turn up and be told ... "but there's only 2 of you and we didn't know you were coming" is just the sort of discouragement we don't need.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
For training the key number is typically six, as this is the coaching ratio, so ideally you need six boats of similar ability

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I still haven't worked out the pros and cons of MCA membership, even though I eventually joined last year. If only I could persuade some of the other Mirror owners at our club to get their boats wet, I'd try to drag someone else along to an away event which might in turn encourage them to join the MCA. But if MCA membership were a prerequisite that might deter such casual sailors.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

For MCA organised events, our insurance is based on members particapating. Even if you do not take part in any class events, all Mirror owners benefit from MCA, high resale values are a reflection of an active association and of course you are making use of this website

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>As regards the class being very welcoming, I have to say I've only ventured to one away event and I obviously chose the wrong one.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Sorry to hear that, worth giving it a chance. We will be organising some days aimed at newcommers next year, so please support them

MCA Secretary

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04 Nov 2006 18:11 #13237 by flyingpig
Replied by flyingpig on topic Classic Mirror
Quote:
"For MCA organised events, our insurance is based on members particapating. Even if you do not take part in any class events, all Mirror owners benefit from MCA, high resale values are a reflection of an active association and of course you are making use of this website"

Time to start a separate thread on membership, I think.

pigs might.....

Edited by - flyingpig on 04 November 2006 18:11:46

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