Hull construction Proposal pt 1AGM 07

  • flyingpig
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17 Aug 2007 21:38 #15464 by flyingpig
Replied by flyingpig on topic Hull construction Proposal pt 1AGM 07
All these rule changes are for serious builders and serious racers. It's goos to see that Trello is trying to rationalize a situation which seems to have become over complicated. Many of our wooden boats were outclassed years ago so we'll just keep plodding on with repairs as best we can, regardless of weight or source of ply. Hopefully the Mirror will always have supporters who just sail it for fun. These guys/gals are quite happy to play with a trapeze, asymmetric, hydrofoils, jet propulsion, Triumph Herald hull and anything else you can think of. See the single handers forum (hmm.... is it always single handers who have these mad-cap ideas?) for threads on the Asymmetric mirror and possible Trapize (sic) modifications.

pigs might.....

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  • ASW
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17 Aug 2007 21:54 #15465 by ASW
Replied by ASW on topic Hull construction Proposal pt 1AGM 07
Trev,

ref rule 1.5.9 this is obviously to address panel thickness tapering which would be desirable.
However, as i read it if you built a timber boat to this rule a thickened bottom panel would have to be the entire panel and not just the cockpit area.
The difference in weight between FRP panels and equivalent ply panels of same thickness is vast which would rule this method out for wood coonstruction.
FRP builders have no problem lightening the ends because whilst the panel thickness remains constant the foam density changes in low impact/stress areas (like in bouyancy tanks etc)reducing the weight without changing panel thickness. There is no easy way of doing this with timber unless you can vary the thickness of the panel.
Why not have a constant panel thickness rule for FRP builds and a toleranced variable panel thickness for wood construction?
The mirror only needs stiffening in the cockpit area (where you stomp about) as all other areas are plenty stiff enough.

Better still lets have a set of plans and tolerances, scrap the kit only rules and allow any method of building.
Anyone who believes that the Mirror is a strict one design is sadly mistaken as almost every hull in the current fleet is different in one way or another even if some of the mods are well hidden!
There is nothing wrong with this if they all fit the tolerances - it`s healthy for the class and should be encouraged - but one design it ain`t.
It`s good to see some forward movement - keep up the good work.

Cheers,
Andy

ASW Boatbuilding & repairs. 07966 513147

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  • doodiboo
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22 Aug 2007 08:34 #15486 by doodiboo
Replied by doodiboo on topic Hull construction Proposal pt 1AGM 07
Thank you Simon and Trello for those responses. I'm in agreement with the recent and proposed changes, my point was, are we done now for a while? and Simon has clearly confirmed that we are, which is good to know.

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  • craig bond
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22 Aug 2007 08:51 #15488 by craig bond
Replied by craig bond on topic Hull construction Proposal pt 1AGM 07
With the Nationals and the new Winder Mirrors just around the corner I think it will be interesting to see what boat wins, wooden, new Winder, old Trident, new rig or old rig?? My money is on a wooden boat with the traditional gaff. Long live the wooden Mirror!!

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  • Simon Lovesey
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22 Aug 2007 09:55 #15489 by Simon Lovesey
Replied by Simon Lovesey on topic Hull construction Proposal pt 1AGM 07
As we have seen at recent events, I am sure there will be a good and representative cross section of Mirrors within the top results.

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  • ASW
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22 Aug 2007 09:56 #15490 by ASW
Replied by ASW on topic Hull construction Proposal pt 1AGM 07
Craig,
You may just be right on that - at the end of the day it`s the dopes on the ropes that make the difference.

See you all soon,
Andy

ASW Boatbuilding & repairs. 07966 513147

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  • craig bond
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22 Aug 2007 10:15 #15491 by craig bond
Replied by craig bond on topic Hull construction Proposal pt 1AGM 07
Rumour has it that Hector may be using his gaff rig!! He has been playing with all sorts of rigs and even yesterday had another new rig to test, gosh it used to be so easy just to pick a gaff and a sail to match. The one piece masts seem to be between Superspars, Z Spars and the Tim Rush section which some are using, Hector also has been playing with an old Needlespar. I still don't think anyone has got in right but keep your eye on a blue Mirror from Brightlingsea, if the wind is light they will be flying!

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  • Simon Lovesey
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22 Aug 2007 12:15 #15494 by Simon Lovesey
Replied by Simon Lovesey on topic Hull construction Proposal pt 1AGM 07
When the new rig was first mooted over 20 years ago and then prior to its actual adoption last year, there were many concerns that the Bermuda Rig will completely out class the existing rig. As we know the reality has been both rigs have performed with winning results.

This year I have sailed a variety of Mirrors with both types of rig, my results have been remarkably similar and more to do with my sailing than the kit used.

I was going through the MCA files recently and found this little gem :

<i>"The GRP boat will devalue existing boats and completely alter the class structure in a very short time, it is a serious and unretactable move into the future, which could be the demise of the Mirror Class"</i>.


Now guess when this was written ??

This was written in 1986 on the introduction of GRP Mirrors, as we all know the class has subsequently gone from strength to strength and the GRP boat in various forms has played a significant role.

One of the strenghes of traditional classes like Mirrors is we can evolve over time, done correctly the class will prosper, and keep Mirrors popular. The easier option is not to change but sometimes we need to be strong and brave


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  • craig bond
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22 Aug 2007 12:43 #15495 by craig bond
Replied by craig bond on topic Hull construction Proposal pt 1AGM 07
I was sure that the new rig would be faster and I still believe this to be true however with the likes of Hector and others showing no more speed than the traditional gaff rig I think we have some way to go. The Nationals will be a real chance for all of the rigs and boats to perform. At the Worlds in January I can't remember a gaff rigged boat in the top few, I think this was only because the top teams had changed. There are people in our club who I beleive are going slower now then when they had the gaff rig. I think the masts are ok but trying to get a sail to match seems very hard.
No difference in speed can only be good for the class.

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  • ASW
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22 Aug 2007 13:54 #15496 by ASW
Replied by ASW on topic Hull construction Proposal pt 1AGM 07
The boys have been sailing in Clevedon's cadet week,this week and on saturday broke their gaff.
Picked up a new bermudan rig from Seldens(a new gaff was nearly the same price as the new mast, and i don't have time to refurb an old one!!)on Monday and using their existing sails - it looks great.
Just been down the beach and watched - airborne in 25knots of breeze - well impressed. Hope the Nationals are windy.
The old sails set just as well on the bermudan rig as they did on the old gaff rig.
Without spreaders and any other control the rigs are always going to be a compromise - just like the gaff was.
No surprise then why there is little or no performance difference.
Having said that the Bermudan mast is massively lighter than the old mast & gaff combination - which cannot be bad.

Cheers.
Andy





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